KO delay..what is acceptable?

[OB..]

The second example was a UK Colleges sevens' tournament.
[...]
One match was a favourite to win team against a very unfancied team. At KO time, the former were no where to be seen. Five minutes later we kicked off, with only the latter on the pitch. They won the toss, opted to KO, did so and scored a try. The (non-present) opposition failed to kick off in a reasonable time ....

In Sevens, the scoring team kicks off, so no need to wait. Keep on truckin'.

 

[crossref]

I can't think of any circumstances where I'd actually kick off a game with only one team present, it seems just silly.
I'd abandon and go home before I did that.

 

[leaguerefaus]

yerrss... but what about the opposition? they are being denied their match through no fault of their own. Doen in the weeks some of these guys would have taken time off of work, or paid babysitters so they can do the one thing they love at the weekend. I know the oppo are pissing them about too, but i'd wager they would still rather have SOME rugby than NO rugby.

didds

Yeh look, I've never had this problem tbh. With league here, every ground has a ground controller and each team has to appoint duty officials, so I could easily get someone to run to the change rooms to hurry them up. Either way though, I'm not waiting all day.

 

[Phil E]

There seem some pretty power mad refeees in this thread :wow:


First off don't stand out on the pitch waiting for the teams to appear, you look like a sad lonely figure (......I know, but there's no need to prove it).

If the teams go in, you go in. Then make sure they are both ready to go out and have them both out together, if neccessary keep the team that are ready first on hold until you get the delaying team moving. That way no one is waiting out in the cold. I always leave last so I know the players are all out there.

If both teams stay out after the warm up, happy days.

If only one team goes inside, then you only have one team to winkle out. Don't go out yourself until they go.


Of course it does backfire sometimes.

Like when I stood banging on the changing room door, only to find out there was a back door and they were all outside waiting for me!
Or when I lef the match ball in my changing room and someone locked it up!
Or the time (not me this time) someone helpfully locked the refs changing room.......with the entire team of three inside!

 

[RobLev]

I don't approve of a YC for that, seems certainly beyond your powers.

If he can YC for a punch thrown before the whistle is blown, why not for ungentlemanly conduct? It's all Law 10, breach of which doesn't require the game to be in progress to trigger sanctions.

having issued a YC did you make them start with 14 players? Did they not complain vociferously?
how did you know that the captain was one of th 15 players who was going to start, or did you wait for the start and then YC him?

:shrug:

 

[RobLev]

There seem some pretty power mad refeees in this thread :wow:


First off don't stand out on the pitch waiting for the teams to appear, you look like a sad lonely figure (......I know, but there's no need to prove it).

If the teams go in, you go in. Then make sure they are both ready to go out and have them both out together, if neccessary keep the team that are ready first on hold until you get the delaying team moving. That way no one is waiting out in the cold. I always leave last so I know the players are all out there...

In one of NM's cases, the respective changing rooms were in two different buildings hundreds of yards apart...

 

[Phil E]

In one of NM's cases, the respective changing rooms were in two different buildings hundreds of yards apart...

One was 50 yards away (half a pitch), the other 300 yards away.

Get the furthest team out first, then while they are walking to the pitch you can go get the other team.
What I wouldn't reccomend doing is standing out on the pitch for 20 minutes waiting for them.

 

[leaguerefaus]

Like when I stood banging on the changing room door, only to find out there was a back door and they were all outside waiting for me!
Or when I lef the match ball in my changing room and someone locked it up!
Or the time (not me this time) someone helpfully locked the refs changing room.......with the entire team of three inside!

Blew the whistle up the tunnel to let them know to get a move on for the second half and then yelled out 'lets go boys'. First aid official is looking at me funny. She points towards the dead-ball line. No team had gone up the tunnel. They were standing at the end of the pitch the whole time. Deary me

 

[Simon Thomas]

It could be argued that Law 13.4 requires an opposition team to be on the field and behind the 10 metre line for a kick off to be taken

Law 7 says the match starts with a kick off, so it could also be argued that until there is a kick off there is no game of rugby so no sanction for time-wasting or unsporting behaviour can be imposed

Not an argument that holds any weight in my juristiction.

 

[crossref]

If he can YC for a punch thrown before the whistle is blown, why not for ungentlemanly conduct? It's all Law 10, breach of which doesn't require the game to be in progress to trigger sanctions.



:shrug:

I can imagine a RC before the game, under cetain cirumstance.
Team would still play with 15 players, but the RC player is no longer in the squad.

but a YC before a game stretches a bit. What? he is forced to be a sub for first ten mins.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Red 15 gets a card. Colour depends on circumstances / where punch landed / etc.

Ditto

 

[RobLev]

I can imagine a RC before the game, under cetain cirumstance.
Team would still play with 15 players, but the RC player is no longer in the squad.

but a YC before a game stretches a bit. What? he is forced to be a sub for first ten mins.

I suppose the effect of a Y/RC depends on whether the competition you're reffing requires team sheets to be handed in before the match commences - and whether you enforce such a rule. It is clear from several threads on here that practice differs. This is an argument for insisting on that practice, not against Y/RC'ing a player for a pre-match offence committed in the playing enclosure.

 

[didds]

I then turned to the away team captain, pointed out that it is part of the Captain's dutieS to be responsible for his team's behaviour and yellow carded him for ungentlemanly conduct.

NO, NO , NO.

There may be many reasons why a captain has absolutely NO control over what his players do. he can be your conduit, but you can NOT make him the scapegoat for everybody else's potential misdemeanours. What on earth are you going to do on the day when the captain is on the pitch on time, alone, gibbering and crying that his players don't like him but he was the only one that was prepared to put up with all the shite that being captain requires in the whole club? are you still going to YC him?

What happens if you ask for the captain and nobody stands up and they claim they are a collective? Or one stands up and says "I am the captain" then one by one all the other's say "No - I am the captain". You gonna YC all 15 ?

its a non starter and a stupid idea UNLESS you have heard him say himself in person "We are not going out yet".

I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

didds

 

[Shelflife]

So what do you do Didds ? Team A are on the pitch, its freezing cold wet and windy. Team b are in the cosy dressing room and slow in coming out in order to gain an advantage. Its clear unsportanlike behaviour and you have asked them twice to move and you are told nearly ready ref.

Whats your solution? Im not argueing just curious.

 

[Browner]

Personally I've never had the issue crop up, but the value of this forum is I now know exactly what I will do when faced with the worst example in the future [thank you RRF]

You'll always get those who push the margins [under gamesmanship] & are nudged back onto the correct behaviors, before during after immediately after the fixture. Occasionally someone will take the piss or refuse to amend their behavior irrespective of who else is effected, and this is even worse when it's orchestrated by a captain [or juniors coach].

The latter need sanctions to ensure discipline & respect & sportsmanship is maintained.

 

[crossref]

So what do you do Didds ? Team A are on the pitch, its freezing cold wet and windy. Team b are in the cosy dressing room and slow in coming out in order to gain an advantage. Its clear unsportanlike behaviour and you have asked them twice to move and you are told nearly ready ref.

Whats your solution? Im not argueing just curious.

I would just wait, with increasing irritation. And get my trackies our of my bag and put them on.
I'm not running off to fetch them.
This is the players' game, not mine.

 

[RobLev]

I would just wait, with increasing irritation. And get my trackies our of my bag and put them on.
I'm not running off to fetch them.
This is the players' game, not mine.

And when the away coach, whose players are getting increasingly cold and fractious, says that if you don't do something about it he's going to have to?

Or, when the home team eventually turn up and the game starts, the away team catcher drops the kick off and it's run in for a try, and their coach politely suggests that cold hands might have contributed to it and it wouldn't have happened if you'd done your job of getting a game of rugby started?

 

[didds]

So what do you do Didds ? Team A are on the pitch, its freezing cold wet and windy. Team b are in the cosy dressing room and slow in coming out in order to gain an advantage. Its clear unsportanlike behaviour and you have asked them twice to move and you are told nearly ready ref.

Whats your solution? Im not argueing just curious.

Its a fair question Shelflife - and as i already opined in this thread I don't really have an answer. It really seems outside of the current remit of the laws which do not have a sanction available - but making up laws to suit oneself is a dangerous place to go I would suggest.

The nearest i can come up with an answer is a PK start for ungentlemanly conduct (or whatever law covers this concept). But as i also said at U16 level (the OPs scenario) a PK in the dead middle of the pitch is almost toothless, and at U13 level would most definitely be.

The guidance to refs discussed earlier is well and good as a starting point for consistency etc - but its effectively useless because having made an assertion of what SHOULD happen doesn't give us any more of a solution that _we_ have already failed to nail.

Others' mileage varies.

To reiterate I do not agree with carding individuals for a team issue that that individual possibly doesn't have any control over or issuing cards that are not covered by the LoTG - making up laws is never a good way to go.
Scrapping the game entirely "immediately" is hugely unfair on the opposition who are looking to play.
Painting yourself in the corner when not backed by a law reference you can point at is equally a week position to put yourself in because if the players don't play ball you've now fronted up with no sanction available.

So in short no i don't have an answer. But making up rubbish isn't a solution either.

I am reminded of a III XV game I played many moons ago now at Windsor RFC IIIrds. We were two players short. They had a bench of several.
So we played without wingers IIRC but mainly because of stirring scrummaging kept them on the back foot and we were winning after an hour. they then managed to end up with various and alleged "injuries " meaning they could go to uncontested scrums. The ref pointed out that the guy that had started the game as hooker was currently playing on the wing - he said his neck hurt and couldn't play FR any more today. Without the pressure on their ball etc now their back row was able to run rampant and we lost. My how they sang lustily in the showers at their magnificent victory.

The ref when he asked about the hooker/winger told the oppo captain he (the ref) believed Windsor were taking the proverbial (but he didn't use that particular P word!) and apologised to us because there was nothing he could do. He (the ref) was right of course. Sometimes refs don't have anything they can do. They and the opposition sometimes just have to accept the status quo however shitty it is.

didds

 

[didds]

And when the away coach, whose players are getting increasingly cold and fractious, says that if you don't do something about it he's going to have to?

Or, when the home team eventually turn up and the game starts, the away team catcher drops the kick off and it's run in for a try, and their coach politely suggests that cold hands might have contributed to it and it wouldn't have happened if you'd done your job of getting a game of rugby started?

Well, I'd suggest that if/when that happens tell said coach you sympathise and empathise entirely but unless he can find the bit in the law book that means you can do anything about it, you are toothless. As for him "doing something about it" - same discussion but also point out that you don't oversee criminal or civil law but can deal with breaches of what IS in the law book, as well as file reports.


didds

 

[didds]

if you'd done your job of getting a game of rugby started?

as in... what law is that under and what sanction does the law book provide that the ref can take?

didds