irishref


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In your union's discussions/instructions about the current batch of law trials as cascaded down to the refs, did you not get a specific mention of players ahead of the kicker and preventing the QTI being offside? I know we did, where in the past it was a grey area.

I had this question published on SARefs a few years back and they said explicitly that the player is not offside as soon as the ball leaves the field of play. The world has turned full circle it seems!
 

crossref


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In your union's discussions/instructions about the current batch of law trials as cascaded down to the refs, did you not get a specific mention of players ahead of the kicker and preventing the QTI being offside? I know we did, where in the past it was a grey area.

I had this question published on SARefs a few years back and they said explicitly that the player is not offside as soon as the ball leaves the field of play. The world has turned full circle it seems!

the moot point is whether, if you all initially stay still / retire under 10m rule as applicable, until the ball is in touch, whether you are then allowed to advance.

no one knows.
 

Davet

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Dickie E - but in the game we are discussing, in the clip shown, the ref determined that the players were offside, and correctly pinged them.

Are you saying there was another instance in that game where the AR got it wrong?

If so, how would that make him right and me wrong?
 

Dickie E


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Dickie E - but in the game we are discussing, in the clip shown, the ref determined that the players were offside, and correctly pinged them.

Are you saying there was another instance in that game where the AR got it wrong?

If so, how would that make him right and me wrong?

In the same game but in 2nd half AR (Alain Roulade, not Assistant Referee) allowed play to continue when a kicker's team mate held his ground 10 metres from where the ball landed in touch then ran up to challenge the QT.
 

Davet

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So AR scores a draw with himself...?

I haven't seen the other incident you mention - maybe there was soemthing materially different about it - I would assume so since the same ref gave a different decision.
 

irishref


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the moot point is whether, if you all initially stay still / retire under 10m rule as applicable, until the ball is in touch, whether you are then allowed to advance.

no one knows.

Is it not that you are offside and no action of your opponent can put you onside - only the action of a team mate. Ergo in such cases 11.4 comes into effect? Or have I got that totally arse-about-tit?!
 

Dixie


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Not necessarily. You were the one who pointed out a few weeks ago Craig Joubert's agreement on SA Refs with Nigel Owens's refusal to award offside in an earlier Championship game.
 

OB..


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In the same game but in 2nd half AR (Alain Roulade, not Assistant Referee) allowed play to continue when a kicker's team mate held his ground 10 metres from where the ball landed in touch then ran up to challenge the QT.
If the player was not offside under the 10m law when the ball went into touch, he was allowed to hold his ground. That was not the case in the earlier situation when the player actually advanced before the ball was in touch, contrary to Law 11.1 (a).

The moot point is whether or not a player who was in an offside position before the ball was in touch is then released from any obligation to be put "onside" before interfering with play.
 

Dickie E


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The moot point is whether or not a player who was in an offside position (and complying with Law by remaining stationery [or retiring under 10 metre law]) before the ball was in touch is then released from any obligation to be put "onside" before interfering with play.

No, that isn't quite it. See in red.

AR, NO and others have ruled Yes.

Davet has said No.

There is a pattern forming.
 
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Davet

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DickieE - what I actually said was that there is no explicit piece of law that says that the ball going dead puts players onside.

If NO and AR have said there is then please point me at it.
 

Dickie E


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You're right - there is nothing explicit in Law at this time.

Evolving custom & practice at the elite level, however, give us some clear direction.
 

Ian_Cook


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I don't entirely agree with you.. If that was the case then why would they have secondary signal for it? Ie signal #35. What your suggesting is tantamount to saying that secondary signals don't matter to elite refs if they choose not to use them as the captain should know what's going on all the time. I would expect an elite referee to know all the signals and to use them in the right situation.


Of course, the other thing is that we don't know (and will probably never know) is if the Wallabies indicated to AR that they will take the PK before the options were even offered. Most captains at that level know when the have options, I have seen both Read and McCaw choose their options before being asked

I know that McCaw definitely knows all his options (he has said as much in an interview) as was seen in 2008, when he corrected a referee's incorrect call. A 22m drop out by SA went the length of the field and into the NZ in-goal, where a NZ player grounded it immediately. The referee (Matt Goddard?) ruled a 22 drop-out to NZ, but McCaw pointed out that a drop-out to NZ wasn't even an option and that the Law says they had choice between, asking SA to take a the drop-out again, or taking a scrum back on the SA 22m with NZ feed. Goddard then realised his mistake, and changed his decision.
 

menace


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Quite possible indeed ian. I concede the comms may not have picked up that possible exchange between AR and gold capt.
 

Davet

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You're right - there is nothing explicit in Law at this time.

Evolving custom & practice at the elite level, however, give us some clear direction.

Last thing we want to do is accept direction from elite level. We'll end up with crooked scrum feeds, not blowing up when the scrum collapses, and a host of other undesirables.

Maybe we should simply do it the right way and let the elite get on with what they do.
 

Dickie E


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Last thing we want to do is accept direction from elite level. We'll end up with crooked scrum feeds, not blowing up when the scrum collapses, and a host of other undesirables.

Maybe we should simply do it the right way and let the elite get on with what they do.

I believe the elite guys are doing it the right way - they'll be relieved to hear that, no doubt
 

damo


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At 6 minutes in the SA v NZ game which Rolland also did, a whole bunch of offside All Blacks remain still until the ball goes into touch, and then advance forward, one of them clearly preventing a QT.

So, did Rolland get the word not to penalise this, or did he just miss this one?
 

Robert Burns

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Referees don't get comms not to penalise, the team of three doesn't work that way.

Comms to help prevent (i.e. Scan backs) & Comms to tell ref something has happened (i.e. blue, knock on), but never comms to tell a ref a decision they have made is not an offence. There are a number of reasons for this.


1, It will raise confusion to the referee who will be trying to play advantage whilst figuring out what the hell the AR is saying, that will always equal a mess.
2, The referee has seen something, how do you know that you were unsighted and they saw it clearly.
3, The referee has already indicated advantage (and possibly an offence) changing that without a clear advantage over would bring questions on what the referee was doing.


With regard to the quick throw in we probably need to break it down and look at each situation seperately.

In all cases the QTI is an option.

A, 10m law offences
1, Defence offside under the 10m law and still advancing to prevent QTI.
2, Defence Offside under the 10m law but standing still until QTI is taken.
3, Defence offside under the 10m law, but retreating until QTI is taken.
4, Defence offside under the 10m law, but retreating until put onside by team mate.

B, In front of kicker Offsides
1, Defence Infront of kicker, advancing to stop the QTI.
2, Defence in front of kicker, standing still until the QTI is taken, then advancing.
3, Defence in front of kicker, standing still until put onside by a team mate.

Now lets look at the relevant laws to see how you get back onside:

10m Offside:
[LAWS]11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10-METRE LAW


(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.

(c) When a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law charges an opponent waiting to catch the ball, the referee blows the whistle at once and the offside player is penalised. Delay may prove dangerous to the opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d) When a player who is offside under the 10-metre Law plays the ball which has been misfielded by an opponent, the offside player is penalised.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(e) The 10-metre Law is not altered by the fact that the ball has hit a goal post or a crossbar. What matters is where the ball lands. An offside player must not be in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(f) The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not 'waiting to play the ball' and the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.
Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.

(g) If more than one player is offside and moving forward after a team-mate has kicked ahead, the place of infringement is the position of the offside player closest to an opponent waiting for the ball, or closest to where the ball lands.
[/LAWS]

When a player is offside in General Play:

[LAWS]11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY

(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:

• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).

A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal.

[/LAWS]

Offside General Play Laws (Being put onside by the actions of an opponent):

[LAWS]11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS

In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.

(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.

(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.

(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.

[/LAWS]

So looking at these laws we can easily answer some of our situations, the law for offside under the 10m law makes no exception for a ball being in touch, so as referees we should not either.

A, 10m law offences
1, Defence offside under the 10m law and still advancing to prevent QTI. Penalty: Law 11.1(a) & 11.3(a)
2, Defence Offside under the 10m law but standing still until QTI is taken. Penalty: Law 11.3(a) but could be managed.
3, Defence offside under the 10m law, but retreating (but still offside under 10m law) until QTI is taken. Penalty: Law 11.3(a) but could be managed.
4, Defence offside under the 10m law, but retreating until put onside by team mate. Play On: Law 11.2(c)

B, In front of kicker Offsides
1, Defence Infront of kicker, advancing to stop the QTI. Penalty: Law 11.1(a)
2, Defence in front of kicker, standing still until the QTI is taken, then advancing. Play On: Law 11.3(b)
3, Defence in front of kicker, standing still until put onside by a team mate. Play On: Law 11.2(c)

Hope that helps.
 
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Dickie E


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It doesn't help me because I believe you are wrong. And the actions of elite referees support my view.
 

damo


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Referees don't get comms not to penalise, the team of three doesn't work that way.

I was referring to some advice from an assessor/official midweek, not his team of three. Perhaps I need to take a bit more time to be clearer with my posts.
 

Robert Burns

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It doesn't help me because I believe you are wrong. And the actions of elite referees support my view.

I believe it agrees with your view, and that of AR in the SA v Aus game.
 
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