Scottish Rugby Union

[OB..]

No country is independent in the sense that there are no limitations on their freedom of policy choice. Every country has limitations on its independence; so unless you take the view that therefore no country is independent, it is entirely possible to be independent within the EU. Pooled sovereignty is none the less sovereignty.

As crossref said, you are playing word games. I pointed out that what matters is the balance you get between the different kinds of restrictions. Whether or not Scotland would have more influence as an EU member or via its MPs at Westminster influencing UK policy is a matter for debate (which I do not propose to enter into).

 

[Browner]

Bringing this a little bit back on topic; I yesterday officiated at the National Police Sevens' Tournament, in which the Scottish Police had entered two teams.

NM

Anyone on the floor likely got a good kicking them !!!!

 

[Dixie]

The Tory Government would he in the embarrassing position of having inadvertently lost Scotland

FTFY :wink:

Actually, we have a coalition government, not a tory one. And Labour isn't free of responsibility either. It was Tony Blair who gave the Jocks the ability to decide their own fate. Alex Salmond managed to get an absolute majority in the Scottish Parliament, and then used that mandate to legislate for a referendum on independence. It is true that Westminster needed to grant powers to do that - but as the referendum would have happened anyway, Westminster was backed into a corner with no real option but to allow democracy to take its course. Blame Blair - it works for most other things, as Simon Smith has alluded to earlier :wink:

 

[SimonSmith]

Anyone on the floor likely got a good kicking them !!!!

The actual quote, as I received from the captain of Hampshire Constabulary when I pulled him, and his player who had just thrown a punch, over is "sorry sir, He fell down the stairs"

 

[Browner]

Actually, we have a coalition government, not a tory one. And Labour isn't free of responsibility either. It was Tony Blair who gave the Jocks the ability to decide their own fate. Alex Salmond managed to get an absolute majority in the Scottish Parliament, and then used that mandate to legislate for a referendum on independence. It is true that Westminster needed to grant powers to do that - but as the referendum would have happened anyway, Westminster was backed into a corner with no real option but to allow democracy to take its course. Blame Blair - it works for most other things, as Simon Smith has alluded to earlier :wink:

History is seeing the shrinking of the Empire, Fiji went some time ago, Hong Kong more recently, once Jockland has gone watch Kernow start their campaign which will lead to yurkshure mobilising. Eventually the walled City of London will remain, then the Yellowstone park mega volcano erupts, then the ice age happens and ........, until it all starts again in 1,000,000 years time.

When I'm reincarnated, I'm going to re- invent and patent the wheel.

Murrayfield will have a decent surface , ....er....... now that's stretching beyond imagination !

 

[RobLev]

As crossref said, you are playing word games. I pointed out that what matters is the balance you get between the different kinds of restrictions. Whether or not Scotland would have more influence as an EU member or via its MPs at Westminster influencing UK policy is a matter for debate (which I do not propose to enter into).

One last post and then I am very definitely leaving this topic.

I object to being told I am playing word games when it is me that it is dealing with reality.

The context of this sub-topic is my reference to the fact that Spain and France would object to Scotland automatically retaining membership of the EU on independence because of the encouragement it would offer to their own national minorities in Catalonia and the Basque country.

It was crossref that in that context responded with the comment:

also : the EU may consider Scotland outside the EU might be even more of an encouragement to the other regions : the prospect of real indepence, quite a prize.

and followed that up with another reference to independence from the EU.

Independence isn't a lapel-badge - it has to have substance or it is nothing. Using the phrase "independence from the EU" as if it has any any substance in relation to a country without looking at the advantages and disadvantages of leaving the EU for that country is valuing the word above the reality; which I'd see as playing word games.

 

[crossref]

It was actually the word sovereignty that I said you were misusing (you were)

 

[Daftmedic]

I believe the children are our future.
How do sporting visas work anyway?
Are they work Visas?
Leisure?

 

[OB..]

One last post and then I am very definitely leaving this topic.

Fine by me, because I now have no idea quite what you are on about.

 

[Daftmedic]

Impact of an independent Scotland on rugby as we know it.

 

[crossref]

Impact of an independent Scotland on rugby as we know it.

IMO almost impact at all.
- Rugby isn't organised according to Nation States. Scotland is already seprate from England and Wales
- in the pro 12 Irish teams play without ireland being part of the UK, so Scotland leaving Uk would make no difference.
- Scotland would get to enter their own rugby team into the Olympics. That would be new
- if scotland were to leave the EU then it would have massive impact on scottish players who -like any other worker - would no longer have automatic right to work in the EU. But that's not really on the cards.

 

[Dixie]

- if scotland were to leave the EU then it would have massive impact on scottish players who -like any other worker - would no longer have automatic right to work in the EU. But that's not really on the cards.

I am fascinated by your confidence that no-one is really thinking in terms of an independent Scotland not being part of the EU. The President of the Commission has said it would have to reapply, meaning it needs the unqulaified agreement of all 29 existing Member States.

a new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the treaties would no longer apply on its territory.

As a new accession country, it would have to adopt the euro and could not benefit from any rebates negotiated by, for example, the redoubtable Mrs T. One of Britain's previous ambassadors to the EU, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, has said:

Beware those who say all is clear - it isn't. Anyone who says that its certain the Scots could, or could not, have their own seat in the EU from 2016 is driven more by advocacy than analysis. The fact is that the EU would be in uncharted waters.

I deal extensively with the Commission, and was in Brussels talking to them earlier this week. The topic of Scotland was broached over lunch, and by far the majority view was that a newly-independent Scotland would have to apply for membership, and while no-one thought that Spain, Italy, Belgium or Romania would actually block their membership, equally no-one anticipated that they would try to fast-track the normal 10-year process.

Herman Van Rompuy, president of the European Council made up of EU national leaders of EU countries, said that a newly independent country must undergo the usual application process—one that includes 35 "chapters" on everything from water quality to taxation.

So given all that - what information do you have that the world's press, the leaders of the EU, and everyone but Alex Salmond lacks?

 

[L'irlandais]

...So given all that - what information do you have that the world's press, the leaders of the EU, and everyone but Alex Salmond lacks?

Jose Manuel Barosso, the man who is paid more than the President of the Unitied States. He would say something of the sort, I mean he must justify his huge salary. Be far too simple to allow newly Independant Scotland to retain the existing relations with the EU.*


While it is right to say that as yet no clear stance has been taken on a post Independance Scotland ; bear in mind Scotland is already a constituency of the European Parliament. Simplest solution sack the over paid president, use the money saved on something more worthwhile, like sport.

*There is already precedence for such acceptance of a newly created sovereign states - Baltic States.
(Yugoslavia being an exception to the orderly succession.)

 

[Dixie]

*There is already precedence for such acceptance of a newly created sovereign states - Baltic States.
(Yugoslavia being an exception to the orderly succession.)

Sorry - this just doesn't hold water. Estonia became independent of the Soviet Union in 1991. It became an EU member in 2004. What do you imagine happened in the intervening 13 years? They went through the process Scotland will have to go through.

 

[Blue Smartie]

Back to impact on rugby in Scotland: on the one hand same old same old. Pro12; Six Nations and tours likely to remain the same. Lions already having to contemplate dropping the 'British & Irish bit'. Scotland might be eligible for the Olympics but it would still have to qualify. The new IRB passport requirement to play at international level could be interesting for imports.

On the other hand, if you consider rugby as an international labour market there will be uncertainty about currency exchange, free movement, personal taxation and a whole lot of political uncertainty which might make a young man with a family think about whether to relocate from NZ or South Africa.

Top level sponsorship might also be interesting. Title sponsors like RBS will have an interesting discussion about their brand if they end up moving to England for regulatory purposes. BT Sport obviously has come in with a whole of UK TV subscription goal - which won't change per se but all will reevaluate how they seem to deliver that.

 

[RobLev]

Jose Manuel Barosso, the man who is paid more than the President of the Unitied States....

Really? JMB's salary is c24k Euros per month, or about 290k Euros pa; Obama's salary is $400k, or 309k Euros pa. How are you counting?

 

[L'irlandais]

Sorry - this just doesn't hold water. Estonia became independent of the Soviet Union in 1991. It became an EU member in 2004. What do you imagine happened in the intervening 13 years? They went through the process Scotland will have to go through.

Doh! None of the Soviet Union states had EU membership, prior to Baltic states' Independence. All member states of the UK do have EU membership, Scotland will NOT have to reapply ; unless people like Barosso are allowed to continue pushing this lumbering bureaucracy .

Roblev everyone can see Obama at work, what exactly JMB and his council does (or how much he's paid) remains nebulous.

 

[dave_clark]

Doh! None of the Soviet Union states had EU membership, prior to Baltic states' Independence. All member states of the UK do have EU membership, Scotland will NOT have to reapply ; unless people like Barosso are allowed to continue pushing this lumbering bureaucracy .

is that based on the rules as they stand currently, or just what you think the rules should be? i'm no expert in this, but everything i've heard (from what you'd like to deem reliable sources) is that membership will not be immediate or guaranteed.

 

[colesy]

Scots law, functioning as it does as part of a state, the UK, which is already an EU member, is already aligned with EU law. Accession problems of the type seen with the former eastern bloc countries are simply not present. Regardless of the posturing that we've seen from both sides in the debate, and from some Europeans, the likelihood that the EU would not smooth the way for rapid Scottish accession seems low to me.

 

[crossref]

Scots law, functioning as it does as part of a state, the UK, which is already an EU member, is already aligned with EU law. Accession problems of the type seen with the former eastern bloc countries are simply not present. Regardless of the posturing that we've seen from both sides in the debate, and from some Europeans, the likelihood that the EU would not smooth the way for rapid Scottish accession seems low to me.

agreed There is no way that the EU will let itself to lose territory, to get smaller.

the question is what price the EU will extract from Scotland -- adopting the Euro is my guess.