shake and say sorry
- Thread starter didds
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Nothing specific from RFU on that topic that I am aware of, but we handle it at Society level in our training programmes, especially for newer refs.
Our members are given clear guidance in a Society wide session as to what are the typical criteria bands for a b*llocking, a YC and as RC. But as we all know there are grrey areas and each incident is of course taken on its own merit, based on game context, management challenges, previous behaviours of teams and individuals, and what actually happened, what the referee saw, and their judgement (based on rugby experience).
We have role play sessions for new refs on how to deal with confrontation generally (often using police or services personnel as our experts based on their training), and we show some best practice videos (Wayne, St Nigel, etc). We cover techniques for control - separating the teams, getting AR input (where appointed), calming the situation generally, backing away to make the offenders come to you with their skippers, deal with full on brawl combatants separately (or risk having it re-start in front of you, assertive body langauge and wording, how to avoid a debate ("I am talking, you are listening"), ow to word the actual boll*cking (dont paint yourself into a corner) or YC/RC dismissal and correct show of the card with clear reasons stated for it.
Also the techniques used are different depending on the personality, character and communication skills of each referee - we are not robots !
Our members are given clear guidance in a Society wide session as to what are the typical criteria bands for a b*llocking, a YC and as RC. But as we all know there are grrey areas and each incident is of course taken on its own merit, based on game context, management challenges, previous behaviours of teams and individuals, and what actually happened, what the referee saw, and their judgement (based on rugby experience).
We have role play sessions for new refs on how to deal with confrontation generally (often using police or services personnel as our experts based on their training), and we show some best practice videos (Wayne, St Nigel, etc). We cover techniques for control - separating the teams, getting AR input (where appointed), calming the situation generally, backing away to make the offenders come to you with their skippers, deal with full on brawl combatants separately (or risk having it re-start in front of you, assertive body langauge and wording, how to avoid a debate ("I am talking, you are listening"), ow to word the actual boll*cking (dont paint yourself into a corner) or YC/RC dismissal and correct show of the card with clear reasons stated for it.
Also the techniques used are different depending on the personality, character and communication skills of each referee - we are not robots !
Browner
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I still think it has a place, especially in u11 - u18 juniors rugby ...........
Although I did once see the protagonists then engage in a hand squeezing strength competition!.....
[I would have YC the pair of them at that point !]
didds
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so why then and not in seniors? we wouldn't be patronising children would we? Or enforxcing an adult requirement on them ?
And waht do you do if one of them says "no" ?
didds
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I don't bother with shake hands in any age. If they want to, that's up to them, but I just give the bollocking, and/or cards and get on with the game.
I'm not their parent, or the police, i cannot force them to do what they do bot want to do, I can only manage and deal with the effects of what they do in accordance with the law.
I would see it as patronising if a ref did it to others and would advise against doing it in future, also makes the ref look and sound like a cock, and as you rightfully say didds, if they don't you have backed yourself into a corner to have to deal with it.
Err I thought everyione so far was agin the idea of shake and make friends at any age group - apart from one poster who felt it had a place in U18.
I think the general view is don't even think of trying that, it makes you look like an extra from some 1930s schoolboy film.
I think the general view is don't even think of trying that, it makes you look like an extra from some 1930s schoolboy film.
didds
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Thanks dave - I realise I had been lazy with my previous post - and FTR I agree totally with you. lets just say I have been quite surprised that in the 21st century I appear to be a bit of a lone voice in some quarters in this regard and i was - for once - beginning to wonder if I am WAY out of kilter with the rest of the world 9as opposed to slightly out which is my entire life!)
didds
didds
I did once see the handshake as an effective sign of peace.
There had been some scuffles during the game and strong warnings. Finally the referee sent two players off. As is only too common, he had seen the retaliation, and the original miscreant was still on the field. One on the touchline started shouting at him and he shouted back. "You and me, right now, let's sort it out" sort of stuff.
The referee blew loudly and said "If you are going to behave like that, I am going to abandon the game", and started to call the captains over.
The two realised they had gone too far, and started shaking hands, attracting the referee's attention. He let the game continue.
Of course the point is that the handshake was voluntary, if somewhat bogus, but there was no further scrapping
There had been some scuffles during the game and strong warnings. Finally the referee sent two players off. As is only too common, he had seen the retaliation, and the original miscreant was still on the field. One on the touchline started shouting at him and he shouted back. "You and me, right now, let's sort it out" sort of stuff.
The referee blew loudly and said "If you are going to behave like that, I am going to abandon the game", and started to call the captains over.
The two realised they had gone too far, and started shaking hands, attracting the referee's attention. He let the game continue.
Of course the point is that the handshake was voluntary, if somewhat bogus, but there was no further scrapping
didds
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There may be something to it. I'm sure I've seen a video of a scrap in a senior international (IIRC South Africa were one of the teams) where the Ref took the two to one side, gave them a bollocking, said something to the effect of "I don't know what started that, but it ends now. Clear?" The two shook hands and got on with the game.
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Browner
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Hi didds
Players are encouraged [nay..invited] to shake hands .... [Humour helps -"try to shake hands without snarling like a angry badger who's been dumped by his girlfriend"] - or something similar.... you get them smiling-you've won !!
epper:.. It's a 'established' diffusing technique ['effective confrontation management - the psychology that underpins the success ... Page 7
Refusals are seen as further evidence of disrespect to sir :nono:
If you don't get respect when trying to diffuse 'HANDBAGS' , then you won't get respect in the match ongoing.............:deadhorse:
Try this ....."so, because you are refusing to shake hands ...... CAPTAIN !!!!! - if you can't persuade your player to shake hands then I will YC him because he's not convinced me that he has simmered down" " the match will not continue until this matter is resolved TO MY satisfaction - one way or the other !
This buys a little longer ...... which results in
a] more simmering time
b] 3rd party seniority being applied [its now player disrespecting his captain - a YC decision is never queried by the captain if he experiences the same disrespect from his player ]
c] player compliance - with all the benefits listed above
Trust me , trust me , trust me ..... it works
And tension dampening remain the primary objective ........ so why not use on adults as well ? [Hey, i'm not advocating professional - coz you've got active assistants and Citing, and video evidence etc...... ] but at lower levels where you don't have these 'tools' you need to get the game back into your control & the quicker the better..
Didds, these are only my suggestions based on my experience both as a 'whistle' and a x-captain !
I am only "leading the horse 'towards' the water" here ........"
xx
browner
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I watched a school match on 25/10/12........
observations
1] x4 U14's played up in U16's team !!
2] referee didn't deal with the first instance of 'handbags' with a 'handshake' , both players were still 'posturing and verbalising at each other as the match was continued.
Anyone guess what followed ??
Yep, an escalated 'dust up' ...... it seperated & no-one was spoken to ... and then
Yep .....you've got it - the next explosion was a mass brawl & we get an abandoned game ! ! ! :wtf:
No YC's No RC's .... but the game abandoned
observations
1] x4 U14's played up in U16's team !!
2] referee didn't deal with the first instance of 'handbags' with a 'handshake' , both players were still 'posturing and verbalising at each other as the match was continued.
Anyone guess what followed ??
Yep, an escalated 'dust up' ...... it seperated & no-one was spoken to ... and then
Yep .....you've got it - the next explosion was a mass brawl & we get an abandoned game ! ! ! :wtf:
No YC's No RC's .... but the game abandoned
Blackberry
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It really does have a place. Not where player A has done something very wrong to blameless Player B, asking for a hand shake would be asking blameless B to ignore A's complete responsibilty. Where it does work is where say two players knock into eachother, one then reacts in a Level 1 out of 10, way, the other reacts with a 2, then back to the other with a 3... you can see where this is going. A quick whistle, call the players over (if you feel it is safe to keep them together) with whoever else you feel might help (the captains for example) and say something like "Gentelmen, gentlemen we've got a cracking game going here and 15 minutes to go, you don't want to spoil it now do you?" Judge their reactions and then if appropriate say something like "Can I leave it to you two to put this behind us?" and which point I have usually got a hand shake between them.
Blackberry
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I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
No
Do NOT do this.
If the offence was originally worth a card then you give the card. You have no authority to imposes your own personal idea that the players should shake hands, and you are way out of your authority if you insist.
The whole notion of insisting, or even suggesting a shake hands protocol is simply a recipe for disaster.
If you want to defuse a situation simply take your time - stop the clock separate the teams and talk to captains and offenders. Get captains to relay a message.... just slow it all down.