Fed up ...

[crossref]

From U6 right through to Colts these age groups operate as clubs within clubs, often run in total isolation until the club has cause to intervene. The unruly element can flourish in this environment until someone does something. Don't assume that the club knows all about that lout of a Dad in the U12s, make the junior chairman, junior secretary or Club Ref Coordinator aware.
.

this is very true.
and to be fair it works both ways with many members of the adult, saturday side side of the club ver ysuspicious and mistrustful of the sunday club, not viewing that as part of the 'real club' in extreme they are seen merely as a useful revenue stream 500 players at £100 per season, plus bar and kitchen, parents are encouraged into an 'associate' ie non voting membership.. requests for adult players / coaches to make an appearance on Sundays are spurned.... apart of course from brief forays to look for an 18 yr old to make up the numbers for the thirds after an injury.

it can be no wonder the club-within a club develops.

then if society refs stop coming as well the spiral continues.

 

[spikeno10]

Whilst I have commented on experience of my son a few posts back I think it's time to put my point of view across.

I coach youth age groups mainly U16 and there are coaches out there (and parents) who are a pain in the rear where it comes to behaviour on the side of a pitch. Our CB has been at pains to bring this to the attention of clubs. One of my other roles is as Youth Chair so I get to hear about things of this nature a lot.

It is often 'aimed' at the youth / mini side of the game but I have a slightly different view of this.

Firstly by the need for the children to get to game there will be parents or others involved in transporting them and therefore watching them. Not so in some of the senior games. Any given club might run teams from U7 to Colts which is 12 age groups often with more then one squad compared to the seniors with maybe 2 or 3 sides. There is a numbers game going on within this discussion.

I try to watch some of our senior games in the region and have to say the behaviour of senior players in the sledging and general manners towards opposition players (and spectators) seems at times to be tolerated by referees who will then deal with the same thing in a youth game far more strictly. I will be very clear here - from my point of view there is no place for it in the game and as a coach I am very clear with the standards I expect from players, I am equally clear with the codes of practise in place at the club.

We have heard of coaches / spectators receiving large scale bans for touchline behaviour (36+ weeks etc) however the disciplinary committee is reluctant to provide details. From my point of view I think this should be shouted from the rooftops as an example f what to expect if you step out of line. I would also like to see the consistancy of approach for behaviour expected in the youth and senior age groups (together with the way it is punished).

 

[ex-lucy]

agree, spikeno10 ...... in principle.
i can deal with on the field dissent from adults ... i have the tools.
with kids and their spectators and coaches ... not so sure of those tools.

adults (mostly) will realise that they are being punished and desist .. kids e.g. u14s and below .. dont seem to have that ability especially when encouraged by their so-called role models.

 

[Staybound]

I think it's interesting that the one "sanction" that hasn't been discussed is just walking off. I'd interpret that as a deep rooted and commendable sense that referees aren't going to give in to the behaviour. However, at some point the adage "no ref, no game" shoudl offer some leverage. I did a club U17 match at the end of last season as a favour (more accurately, as CRefC, I couldn't find anyone else!). I dashed home from work on a Friday, changed and warmed up. 2 minutes in the ball goes into touch for the first lineout. The 2 props at the front decided to engage in what Bill McClaren would have called argy bargy. I manage it with a bit of humour and bit of warning language only to hear a dad behind me going off like a steam kettle. I turn round slowly and said something along the lines of "Everything's sorted here my friend let's try and set an example rather than inflame the situation" at which point I was told to "f*ck off". Now what I should have done is what matey suggested - him and his son wouldn't have had a game and I would have had a nice late April Friday evening at the local. To be perfectly honest I just wanted to belt this dude. I called the coach over and gave him the "look, I'm here as a favour, I'm carrying a couple of niggling injuries, we're 5 minutes into this match and I don't need to be told to f-off by anyone, least of all - so you get that guy off this pitch or I'll be following his advice".

As it happened it was sunsequently a cracker of a game with a lot of tension and grisle and one of the more challenging and enjoyable matches of the season. I'm glad I didn't walk off but I think we should have that in our armoury.

Before you ask, and I know I was wrong, I didn't file a formal complaint. The guy (under close escort) withdrew and later apologised. I should have logged it I know.

 

[crossref]

I have done similar - I was aware that a game had suddenly developed a niggle with tempers starting to rise on the pitch - still under control but I had my eyes open if you know what I mean ... EXCEPT that a group of parents from one team are basically egging them on, inciting violence in quite explicit terms. Not ref-abuse - but not helpful/appropriate in an U14 friendly.

it was nearly half time, so I cold wait for the break and then had a word with the coach, who agreed with me... and it stopped. I think most coaches are actually sensible IME.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Simon, do you have any historical 'results' that you can share with regard to outcome of issues such as these that have affected referees?

I can only comment on Society Referees who have reported on pitch or post match abuse by players / coaches or spectators, plus the growing trend of abusive reports. My comments cover the 8 seasons I have been Chairman and in that time there have been only a small number, but high impact cases.

Club Referees do not always report dismissals let alone abuse (or even recognise abuse). Our Society Referees do report all on pitch, but even now allow some off pitch stuff to go unreported.

1. All request to remove offensive / abusive reports formweb sites have been done, with letters of apology and in some cases 'best practice' internal training.

2. Player abuse and coach abuse have mostly been reported officially and all been found guilty and punished to varying degrees. In one case it was claimed "I was talking to my skipper not you ref, I would never call you a c*nt to your face". Disciplinary Committee found him guilty and banned him with advice of if ref is in earshot, he will assume you are talkiing to him.
Some boderline cases were dealt with direct with club and handled internally to Society's satisfaction.

3. Spectator abuse is far more difficult to deal with officially without named witnesses and their statements. However most clubs react poistively and take signifdicant internal action including bans, education, etc

 

[scrumpox2]

Their so-called role models include you ex-lucy even if only for one hour.
I sense your frustration, some despair perhaps because you think you lack the tools.
Maybe the issue is recognising who needs to be spoken to - the one player out of line, the captain of the team with several players out of line or the coach of the team whose players/spectators are out of line.

 

[crossref]

Club Referees do not always report dismissals let alone abuse

I think they do - but the formal channel for reporting things is ...... to the club. So you wouldn't hear of it.

Perhaps Societies should open themselves up and have 'associate members' who are club-refs, not graded, not appointed to games, don't get the kit, but who have access to
- training
- communications (so they can see all the new laws/directives/emails)
- a channel for reporting and advice over abuse issues
- mutual support.

cub-refs would benefit, and i think Societies would bnefit as well from understanding and having a little more visibility over the club-ref scene. It could only lead to better-standard club refs, and perhaps to more upgrades to full-membership.

 

[spikeno10]

I think they do - but the formal channel for reporting things is ...... to the club. So you wouldn't hear of it.

Perhaps Societies should open themselves up and have 'associate members' who are club-refs, not graded, not appointed to games, don't get the kit, but who have access to
- training
- communications (so they can see all the new laws/directives/emails)
- a channel for reporting and advice over abuse issues
- mutual support.

cub-refs would benefit, and i think Societies would bnefit as well from understanding and having a little more visibility over the club-ref scene. It could only lead to better-standard club refs, and perhaps to more upgrades to full-membership.

Great idea :clap:

 

[andyscott]

Apparently when walking off the pitch and a so called supporter calls you a cheating C*&T, it is not the best to reply with, "I suggest you F^&K Off or i will put you square on your arse fella!!!" Especially when the comms kit is still on :clap: :clap: :clap:


Err no it wasnt me (thankfully)

 

[Phil E]

Perhaps Societies should open themselves up and have 'associate members' who are club-refs, not graded, not appointed to games, don't get the kit, but who have access to
- training
- communications (so they can see all the new laws/directives/emails)
- a channel for reporting and advice over abuse issues
- mutual support.
.

In Warwickshire all of our monthly training meetings are "open meetings" and any club ref, club official, coach or player is more than welcome. While they are there they can ask for help or advice.

Very few take up the offer IME.

 

[crossref]

Yes, but it's not very attractive to attend a meeting of a society that doesn't want you as a member

 

[Simon Thomas]

I think they do - but the formal channel for reporting things is ...... to the club. So you wouldn't hear of it.

Perhaps Societies should open themselves up and have 'associate members' who are club-refs, not graded, not appointed to games, don't get the kit, but who have access to
- training
- communications (so they can see all the new laws/directives/emails)
- a channel for reporting and advice over abuse issues
- mutual support.

cub-refs would benefit, and i think Societies would bnefit as well from understanding and having a little more visibility over the club-ref scene. It could only lead to better-standard club refs, and perhaps to more upgrades to full-membership.

The formal reporting channel as a Club Referee is as you say to the Club, and they report it for stats to the CB - so yes the Society does hear about it via CB. At each Governance Committee meeting all Society, Club, Uni, Youth and Schools dismissals and abuse cases are reported, with actions taken and we have to adopt them as ok.

As Club Referees sometimes they have a Club Society, some times a CRefC, sometimes a helpful Society Ref, and sometimes no one (they are the ones we need to help). But nothing difficult there in reporting to club - so why do some club refs not report dismisssals or abuse ? (Rhetorical question).

As for Societies opening themselves up - we have totally open meetings to Club Refs, Club Coaches, Administrators, etc. Increasingly CRefCs are attending, as is the co-ordinator of our one Club sub-Society (so far, two more coming soon). So with the meetings and our web site, plus the CRefC and CRefDevptManager club refs have access to
- training
- communications (for new laws etc)
- advice / help in cases of dismissals, abuse etc
-and we atry to be very open and very inclusive, soit he support is there - and used on occasions, cos I get the emails / phone calls.

Part of the CRefC and CrefDevManager development is that Club refs will be advised (not assessed) and will have 'grades' - some do already by being banded as to the age groups they can referee. The whole point of ythe initiative is to get Club Rerf standards up, and that will we know lead at some stage to full Society membership, perhaps when their kids are playing senior rugby, or thjey get ti bug to see how far they can go.

With so many Society Refs as CRefCs or doing Sunday Youth matches as Club Refs, a Society man as CReferee Development Manager, reps on CBRDP and Youth Committees, Society Refs as Youth Coaches (Scrumpox, Jenko two at my club), Society Rfs as Club Secs, Chairmen, etc I think in our County we are more integrated than we ever have been between Society and Club Refs.

if it isn't like that in your CB, contact the Society and offer to work with them in getting it set up and working.

 

[OB..]

In Warwickshire all of our monthly training meetings are "open meetings" and any club ref, club official, coach or player is more than welcome. While they are there they can ask for help or advice.

Very few take up the offer IME.

Same with us.

Yes, but it's not very attractive to attend a meeting of a society that doesn't want you as a member

They can join. There is no obligation to become a society referee.

 

[SimonSmith]

We have, for the last few seasons hosted conference calls to go through Law and the application thereof on the field.

Deliberately targeted at Coaches so that we could all get on the same page.

Take up rate was very very low. Hence the glee in my voice when I was able to say "well, if you'd been on the concall when we discussed this area, you'd have been forewarned about how it was going to be handled".

 

[andyscott]

I think a club referee has to take responsibility in finding out about issue law updates etc, it is his or her responsibility to look. I dont feel it is about spoon feeding them.

If you want to be a better referee, attend the meetings, trainging etc, email the society, can you put me on your distribution list etc.

 

[Andyp]

Would be useful if Mr Moore could say more about this on the TV,whilst also sorting out some of the myths discussed elsewhere. Stuart Barnes should be challenged to complete a referring course although I'm not sure he could keep up with the game. I know they want him to be difficult but it does add to the misunderstanding of spectators.

Would also help if coaches were more responsible for their parents at Junior level. Too many lack to balls to do it.

 

[PaulDG]

I think a club referee has to take responsibility in finding out about issue law updates etc, it is his or her responsibility to look. I dont feel it is about spoon feeding them.

The club referee is doing all he/she can - they probably didn't want to be a referee but were given a whistle and told to do their best at some point and maybe did the NFC1 or the ELRA later. Or perhaps they're thinking about doing the ELRA one day.. Though if the society could provide a ref for every game, they wouldn't have to do it..

If you want to be a better referee, attend the meetings, trainging etc, email the society, can you put me on your distribution list etc.

They don't know anything about that. They're just "helping out" like we all are.

 

[crossref]

Same with us.

They can join. There is no obligation to become a society referee.

I wasn't allowed to join the London Soc
but I was told I could come to to training meetings

I think an actual 'associate member' class would be a BIG step in welcoming people into the fold, just belonging, being on the distribution list etc makes a big difference... it's a positive signal that you are part of something if only a small part.

 

[OB..]

I wasn't allowed to join the London Soc

Why not?