Fed up ...

[dave_clark]

because we have certain standards :biggrin:

 

[andyscott]

The club referee is doing all he/she can - they probably didn't want to be a referee but were given a whistle and told to do their best at some point and maybe did the NFC1 or the ELRA later. Or perhaps they're thinking about doing the ELRA one day.. Though if the society could provide a ref for every game, they wouldn't have to do it..



They don't know anything about that. They're just "helping out" like we all are.

But then if they dont want to do it, it matters not how much the CB, society or anyone else wants to help them, they wont listen.

You can only help someone so much :wow:

 

[Deeps]

that won't work if the captains are aged 15.. i
..in that situation you have to confront the coach himself. Which is tricky.

I have done it once. I stopped the game and asked the abusive coach to come on to the field so I could talk to him (I didn't want a touchline shouting match). Somewhat to my relief he did indeed come, and I said somethnig along the lines of the above and for the rest of the match he stopped shouting from sideline... (he muttered instead)

I have witnessed Captains having a word with their respective coaches who then dealt with offenders. It empowered relatively young Captains to the point where the players were telling the crowd to be quiet as they were spoiling the game.

 

[crossref]

because I am not available to ref - which is, really, fair enough.

Oh and the whole leggings thing
(joke)

I do think some kind of Associate Member is the answer.

 

[B52 REF]

crossref- we used to have formal interviews in london- all very scay- but they even let me in. not sure "who" won't let you join (obviously you need paperwork/assessments etc done to be insured as soc.ref) but just turn up at meets aand you will soon be treated as one of the fraternity anyway.

Rude coaches -give them one chance then kick them out - was mildly surprised at how brave local refs thought that was in Vegas (comments like "should have happened years ago" and "but he's an **** international") Coach himself seemed shocked -his skip had to explain it to him and then he was "going to have my badge" and giving it the "are you a proper ref- i want to see your cert." etc. -i pointed out the IRB on my back should have given him a clue :wink:

 

[Davet]

then he was "going to have my badge"

I would suggest that, following the report for abuse of match official that was going in, the "badge" that was at risk was actually his.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I wasn't allowed to join the London Soc
but I was told I could come to to training meetings

all are welcome to join the Hampshire Society, whether available to referee or not.

Over time (maybe a decade) I suspect it will become a requirement anyway, and all referees will have to be Society members or RFU "Branch" Referees maybe based around Federations (no longer Societies and CBs); the growth of the CRefC and Club Society programmes are steps in that direction.

Currently we have a CB that now requires all Club Referees for U14 to U16 Leagues to be ELRA 1&2 qualified.

 

[PaulDG]

Currently we have a CB that now requires all Club Referees for U14 to U16 Leagues to be ELRA 1&2 qualified.

Find me the regulation, please.

Even adult RFU leagues don't required ELRA qualified referees - they say that a society referee should be appointed if possible.

 

[crossref]

Currently we have a CB that now requires all Club Referees for U14 to U16 Leagues to be ELRA 1&2 qualified.

How can that be the case? What about
- Refs who took courses that predate ELRA (which is only about 5 yrs old)
- Refs who qualified outside england
in my club we have both (and they are excellent refs, and regularly take league games)

Herts Middx League Rules just speciy that the ref should 'qualified'

1. The Home Team is responsible for supplying a suitable referee for the fixture where suitable implies that the referee is (in order of preference):
a. a currently recognised society referee
b. a qualified referee not attached to the Home Club
c. a qualified referee not attached to the Home Team (ie that particular Age Group)

2. If a suitable referee is not available then the Home Team must;
a. Inform the visiting team at least two full days in advance that there is no suitable referee.
b. Offer the visiting team the option of providing an alternative suitable referee for the whole game.
c. If the Visiting Team declines the offer of providing their own referee then the Home Team can provide a qualified referee who is also attached to the particular Age Group.
Failure to comply with these rules may result in the docking of points from the Home Team and so it is advised that adequate records be kept for future reference

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

There is a U16 Yorkshire Cup semi-final in South Yorkshire this weekend. The call from the Sunday Appts guy went out for a TO3 to do this match. It now appears that we have appointed a TO4 all at L7 and above with a iRB AR refereeing (I think - based on the first call)!!! All because they (the home team) are considered "challenging". I am not party to all the facts (and indeed the Appt guys suggests the TO4 is "out of his hands")however from what I can see there are at least two routes that have led to this, either as a Society we know what they're like and have appointed accordingly or the club know what they're like and have asked for this or perhaps the CB. Whatever way the decision was arrived at I am appalled that i) There is a need for this level of experience/expertise for a U16 game for reasons not really connected to "Rugby" ii)That we as a Society and/or the club concerned and/or the CB are treating the symptoms of the "disease" rather than the cause.

IF they are that bad what are they doing still playing Rugby. It stinks!

Like I say this is the view I have and I may be missing something. I will ask Hon Soc Sec what the deal is when he assesses me a week on Saturday.:biggrin:

 

[Dixie]

Currently we have a CB that now requires all Club Referees for U14 to U16 Leagues to be ELRA 1&2 qualified.

Find me the regulation, please.

Even adult RFU leagues don't required ELRA qualified referees - they say that a society referee should be appointed if possible.

Paul - ELRA 1&2 does not imply Society - that's ELRA 3.

Hants Regs are oddly numbered, but:

4312 Referees and Touch Judges

- 3. It is the express responsibility of the Home Team to ensure that a suitably qualified referee is available to officiate at the match.

...

- 5. A Club that fails to source a suitably qualified referee, (from their own club, the Society, a neighbouring club or from the “away” team) they may forfeit a maximum of three match points at the age-group concerned. The lack of a referee will not be considered grounds for re-scheduling a match.

Of course, the question is then the definition of "suitably qualified", which does not appear in the regs. If it is understood by all, whether or not by diktat of the CB, then that is the situation.

 

[Davet]

IF they are that bad what are they doing still playing Rugby. It stinks!

It may be that there is a need to gather evidence from highly qualified individuals before sanctions that could be challenged in a court of Law are undertaken?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Find me the regulation, please.

Even adult RFU leagues don't required ELRA qualified referees - they say that a society referee should be appointed if possible.

PaulDG - why are you so confrontational ?

In my CB, in Hampshire, the Youth Committee (who are the organisers of the U14, U15, & U16 Leagues - Colts Leagues come under the Adults Comps Committee and have Society Referees only) with the approval of the competing clubs at the pre-season League meeting (and then approved by the Hampshire CB Governance Committee and Management Committees I sit on) made two Youth League Regs decisions, which apply to the Youth Leagues specifically and are minuted as such. As our RFU Referee has put 120+ ELRA trainees through the course for the last four seasons, there are plenty of ELRA qualifieds about. And with a course each and every month there is a new regular supply coming through as well.

The Youth Committee decided that for U14, U15 and U16 League matches all referees will be Club Referees appointed by the home club (thus avoiding expensive travel costs) and will be qualified (ELRA being the basic RFU qualification). However any Society appointments for deveopoment referees will take precendence over a club appointment if notified more than 10 days prior to the match.

Each of the Comps Committees (Youth, Colts, Men, Womens, Schools) add their specific regs on top of the standard CB ones which Dixie quotes above, and where "suitably qualified" is deliberately left open to interpretation (as are many Regs) so we are not 'painted into a corner'.

As for your comment regarding RFU Adult League regulations, of course the regulation says 'if possible' as that leaves room for flexibility in unusual circumstances. The assumption by the Comps Committees (up to L6) that I deal with is that at level 10 and upwards a Society Referee is appointed and is one of a suitable grade and ability to meet the needs of that match.

By definition a Society Referee is ELRA1&2 qualified, and in many Societies part 3 qualified too before being appointed to the lowest level League match.

CrossRef - any Club or Society Referee that had NFC pre ELRA was deemed to be qualified already if they had been actively refereeing. If they have had more than a full season off refereeing, RFU Refs Dept guidance (not requirement) was to encourage them to attend an ELRA as a refresher.

Refs who qualify outside the CB have to show proof of their ELRA or in the case of Society Refs we ask for a letter of grade confirmation and recent assesment reports - and ELRA and Society membership are tracked on RugbyFirst.

For overseas refs (and we have quite a few of them) they either have to show the basic IRB L1 or the local Union qualification (e.g. from Wales, Scotland) or we check with their old Home Union.

Herts Middx have a similar suitable and qualified regulation - clear but flexible.

Qualified means ELRA or equivalent to most rugby administrators I am involved with, and that I suspect would be the position for any Duty of Care or third party liability case. Hence in Hampshire that is how we have interpreted it and insist on ELRA qualified referees for all Youth League matches.

 

[crossref]

at my club our policy is that all our refs should do ELRA1&2 by the time they ref u13 upwards, and MUST have done it to do a league game.

But
- we have grandfathered the pre-ELRA refs.
- we assume qualifications gained outside england are as good as ELRA1&2

I think this is typical. So I would agree that all league games refs should be qualified, but not necessarily ELRA.

I've never seen a club-ref asked to rpoduce a certificate...Altho I have mine in the bottom of my kit bag somewhere. I think.

 

[PaulDG]

PaulDG - why are you so confrontational ?

It wasn't meant to be confrontational, it was a genuine request for information.

Every league regulation I've read about referees always has a get out clause that, more or less, says "but if there isn't anyone else a completely unqualified person who might be a coach of one of the sides can referee it".

If there's actually been a stake put in the ground somewhere that says "if there's no one without an ELRA 2 or equivalent then the match does not go ahead", that's possibly a good thing, but I'd be very interested in knowing how things pan out.

 

[spikeno10]

I've seen 'instruction' that all games in our CB from Under 7 upwards are to be taken by a qualified referee.

One of the worst days I had coaching my boys many years ago (their under 9 season i think) was when a referee turned up in full society kit and refereed them as if it was a cup final. No empathy. He was technically brilliant but the kids on both sides hated every minute of it. I have no memory of the score just the look of despair on the face of a number of the players for being pinged for things they couldn't even grasp.

I'm hoping this instruction doesn't take us down that line. Rugby in the minis should be a learning opportunity during games with the referee facilitating the game (maybe coaching as they go - which is possibly why the coaches do take these games).

 

[Simon Thomas]

It wasn't meant to be confrontational, it was a genuine request for information.

Every league regulation I've read about referees always has a get out clause that, more or less, says "but if there isn't anyone else a completely unqualified person who might be a coach of one of the sides can referee it".

If there's actually been a stake put in the ground somewhere that says "if there's no one without an ELRA 2 or equivalent then the match does not go ahead", that's possibly a good thing, but I'd be very interested in knowing how things pan out.

Ok PaulDG - I am a bit touchy at the moment - apologies !

Yes as you rightly say every League Reg tends to be basic, vague or have a "let out" clause. Many were written many years ago and have been updated bit buy bit a number of times. Hence we re-wrote our Hampshire Colts League and Youth Leagues from scratch a few years ago.

I and the Appts / re-Appts Sec have had a few calls from clubs re no show ref, ref injured in warm up, ref sick, etc and "can 3rd team's Society Ref who is here do 1st XV L8 ?" (NO NO NO NO !), can our Club ref do 1st XV League L10 match (maybe, is he ELRA qualified and what Youth levels does he do ? U16 - OK maybe, call League Comps Secretary), etc.

We would never sanction an non-Society Ref in any League match down to L9 under any circumstances, as I would expect a b*llocking from London DOC (Comps). At L10 perhaps a known Club Referee, and for lower Merits / Vets matches ok with club ref. Colts -no way ( Colts = L9 min for us, and if you (the Club) ignore that advice, it is your responsibility).

 

[beckett50]

the questioning of referees by spectators and coaches from the touch line is getting worse .. despite all the PR work with posters and leaflets etc .. about codes of conduct, coaches and spectators still stand there and scream ....openly questioning decisions loudly

then the players listen to their so-called role models... and you have a running battle trying to keep all calm ....

classic ... after some show of dissent already
yellow left winger dives on the ball ...
red right winger falls on top ...
before i can get my whistle to my mouth or shout "seen it ..." that touchline is screaming .. and yellow players start screaming ... "rediculous" "awful" "joke" etc etc
so, i shout (above the clamour) .. 'penatly to yellow .. but i will reverse the next one if i hear any more dissent' ... (more 'rediculous' 'joke' shouts)

seems to be some clubs only but .... is definitely getting worse.

have written an email to the chairman of youth of that club .. asking for the group to be reminded of the code of ocnduct... only to be hit by a serious complaint email from the coach about my bias and loss of control !

serious issues with expectations .... i think that they havent been refereed by a good strong referee before .... e.g. breakdown interpretations ... but they should still listen to the ref and comply .. and certainly not threaten to walk off the pitch etc !

Which is why I always think twice about whether I want to accept a youth fixture. Shame, because (and I don't meant to blow my own trumpet) I think that the players genuinely benefit from a 'proper' society referee refereeing the impartially and to the LotG.

Instead, what they get is either a school master or a referee that will ref between the 10s and the frustration of the parents/coaches/players builds

 

[ballsie]

so who has got a game tommorow then

 

[crossref]

so who has got a game tommorow then

I am reffing our U14, who are having a v good season, against a strong club travelling up some distance from out of county.. better than us on paper but it's half term so they may be missing a few players and I know they are hoping for a scalp.

We've played them before, so I know that both sets of coaches and few parents on either side can be fiesty... I'm looking forward to it.