the Chiefs

[timmad]

"Crusader" is NOT a racist word. Calling someone a "Crusader" does not insult their race or ethnicity; rather, calling them a "crusader" is actually a term of respect in modern language. A crusader is someone who fights for a cause such as rights, justice or freedom.

Ian I believe Crusader comes from a participant in the Christian Crusades against the expansion of Islam in the 11th to 15th Centuries, and its etymology is from the Latin 'crux' or cross. Albeit in Western / 'White' ethnic communities the word may have come to mean someone striving for a 'good' cause the term's connotations have the potential to cause offence and IMHO, as religion should have no place in sport, would be better replaced as a team name. (BTW not shouting can't remove the bold type.)

 

[Ian_Cook]

"Crusader" is NOT a racist word. Calling someone a "Crusader" does not insult their race or ethnicity; rather, calling them a "crusader" is actually a term of respect in modern language. A crusader is someone who fights for a cause such as rights, justice or freedom.

Ian I believe Crusader comes from a participant in the Christian Crusades against the expansion of Islam in the 11th to 15th Centuries, and its etymology is from the Latin 'crux' or cross. Albeit in Western / 'White' ethnic communities the word may have come to mean someone striving for a 'good' cause the term's connotations have the potential to cause offence and IMHO, as religion should have no place in sport, would be better replaced as a team name. (BTW not shouting can't remove the bold type.)

No quite.

Crusader comes from the Old French "criosee" meaning "to carry the cross". In his 12th century chronicle, a French monk called Guilbert du of Nogent wrote....“God has instituted in our time holy wars, so that the order of knights and the crowd running in its wake… might find a new way of gaining salvation. And so they are not forced to abandon secular affairs completely by choosing the monastic life or any religious profession, as used to be the custom, but can attain in some measure God’s grace while pursuing their own careers, with the liberty and in the dress to which they are accustomed.”

The word existed long before this and and was not used contemporaneously to describe the first of those wars or the participants, in other words, the crusades were not called the crusades when the began to take place (despite what you might see depicted in Hollywood movies). The word was co-opted after the fact (in the 12th century) to describe historical events of over 100 years earlier.

In any case, there is no call from the vast majority (over 85%) of the people whose business this is (that is the Christian, Muslim and secular communities of Christchurch) As far as they are concerned (and that very much includes a huge majority of Muslims) the name of the "Crusaders" will not be changed. The imagery is gone as it should be because DOES refer to those Holy Wars, but the name no longer does.


Its game over for the virtue signallers and professional offence takers.

 

[timmad]

In a future World Club Championship (not soon, given any number of current circumstances) could Crusaders be drawn against Saracens, perhaps played on 'neutral' territory in outside Jerusalem?

 

[Ian_Cook]

In a future World Club Championship (not soon, given any number of current circumstances) could Crusaders be drawn against Saracens, perhaps played on 'neutral' territory in outside Jerusalem?

In the Skeptics forum I am a member of, this post would be nominated for the Pith Award ( and be a definite front-runner to win)

 

[crossref]

In the Skeptics forum I am a member of, this post would be nominated for the Pith Award ( and be a definite front-runner to win)

Now, I thought you said the Crusaders had lost any association with the , well, the crusaders ?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Now, I thought you said the Crusaders had lost any association with the , well, the crusaders ?

Err, pith, as in "taking the pith"!

 

[Dickie E]

I might need recalibrating. I have a tendency to use this OK emoji in my texts. Apparently it may mean that I am a white supremacist. What does the hive think?

 

[Balones]

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4038&d=1596607332


Take it any way you want!

 

[L'irlandais]

Not everyone buys the idea of harmonious relations in Canterbury it seems.
Tina Ngata says Maori people are still suffering under the legacy of colonialism

 

[SimonSmith]

I'm not entirely sure what that haas to do with the thread, unless you just like taking pot shots at people and places.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I'm not entirely sure what that haas to do with the thread, unless you just like taking pot shots at people and places.

I can tell you exactly what that has to do with the thread... exactly nothing

 

[L'irlandais]

As early as post #07 the Maori were brought up. Nobody had a problem with it, since the difference between appropriation and appreciation is an underlying theme of this thread.

Some have been dismissive, about the impact of a name. I think it important to hear both sides of the story

While it is often defended as innocent homage or humour;
it is in fact an exercise in entitlement and privilege. It is experienced by minority groups as an extension of generations of cultural erasure and replacement.
... Thanks to the efforts of communities of colour around the world, instances of cultural appropriation appear to be on the decline, and that holds significant promise for our race relations. However this will only continue to improve when we, as a community, forge ahead with calling such cultural assaults out for what they are – an abuse of privilege that has no place in a just society.

 

[Ian_Cook]

As early as post #07 the Maori were brought up. Nobody had a problem with it, since the difference between appropriation and appreciation is an underlying theme of this thread.

Some have been dismissive, about the impact of a name. I think it important to hear both sides of the story

Cultural appropriation isn't even a thing in my book. Its just another one of those Victimhood Culture, PC catchwords that SJWs have become fond of lately


PS: @DickieE... you bloody Ockers need to get that Southern Cross off yer flag... That's part of our culture ya bloody thieving cultural appropriating convicts!!

 

[L'irlandais]

Which is precisely my point, it pervades all parts of society, not just professional sport. The beauty of it is though your dismissal of the existence of the issue, doesn’t change a thing. (Other than in your life.)

[LAWS]When you raise the subject of cultural appropriation, it’s not uncommon to be dismissed, often with rolling eyes or other criticisms such as “PC gone mad!” People don’t like to be challenged in their complacency, and more often than not Cultural Appropriation is a term that is not well understood.[/LAWS]

Somehow I think the

is missing from your post. Unless like Karaitiana Taiuru suggests you’re blind to your faults:

Statistically, both in New Zealand and internationally, it is middle aged white males who dominate decision making positions and whom are in positions of authority and influence, ... Yet, they are also the only group most likely not to be discriminated against in society...

 

[Ian_Cook]

Which is precisely my point, it pervades all parts of society, not just professional sport. The beauty of it is though your dismissal of the existence of the issue, doesn’t change a thing. (Other than in your life.)

[LAWS]When you raise the subject of cultural appropriation, it’s not uncommon to be dismissed, often with rolling eyes or other criticisms such as “PC gone mad!” People don’t like to be challenged in their complacency, and more often than not Cultural Appropriation is a term that is not well understood.[/LAWS]

Statistically, both in New Zealand and internationally, it is middle aged white males who dominate decision making positions and whom are in positions of authority and influence, ... Yet, they are also the only group most likely not to be discriminated against in society...

Somehow I think the :sarc: is missing from your post. Unless like Karaitiana Taiuru suggests you’re blind to your faults:

1. Just because someone says that does not make it true

2. I'm an old white male so it doesn't refer to me :biggrin:

"Cultural appropriation", "microagression", "safe spaces" etc... these are PC terms made up from whole cloth by people with too much time on their hands, people who are professional offence takers, mostly looking for opportunities make money by selling books about victimhood culture.

Give me any example of a so-called microaggression, and I'll show you how its not.

 

[Dickie E]

PS: @DickieE... you bloody Ockers need to get that Southern Cross off yer flag... That's part of our culture ya bloody thieving cultural appropriating convicts!!

Hardly.

https://www.northernstar.com.au/news/australia-should-change-flag-acting-nz-pm/3476016/

Technically, New Zealand adopted its Southern Cross-starred flag in 1902, while Australia formally only did so in 1954.
However, the Aussie national banner won a competition in 1901 and was flown in September that year during the first Flag Day. It underwent minor changes during the decade.

But this is academic. I have decided that to converse in English is cultural appropriation of the language of the Engländer so I no longer understand what you are saying. Sorry but convictions are convictions.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Hardly.

https://www.northernstar.com.au/news/australia-should-change-flag-acting-nz-pm/3476016/

Oh, we better get it off our flag then :frown:

But this is academic. I have decided that to converse in English is cultural appropriation of the language of the Engländer so I no longer understand what you are saying. Sorry but convictions are convictions.

Yeah, sounds like Double-Dutch to me!:biggrin:

 

[Dickie E]

Oh, we better get it off our flag then :frown:

no need for that. Sharing is caring :aus::nz:

 

[TigerCraig]

Which is precisely my point, it pervades all parts of society, not just professional sport. The beauty of it is though your dismissal of the existence of the issue, doesn’t change a thing. (Other than in your life.)

[LAWS]When you raise the subject of cultural appropriation, it’s not uncommon to be dismissed, often with rolling eyes or other criticisms such as “PC gone mad!” People don’t like to be challenged in their complacency, and more often than not Cultural Appropriation is a term that is not well understood.[/LAWS]

Somehow I think the

is missing from your post. Unless like Karaitiana Taiuru suggests you’re blind to your faults:

 

[L'irlandais]

Karaitiana Taiuru’s blog

The term “Kiwi” is a Māori word which has been used to describe New Zealanders since possibly the early 1900’s. Yet, the Kiwi is a sacred bird of Māori and features in many traditional knowledge forms such as sayings, songs and stories. In Māori theology the Kiwi is a senior descendant of Tane, the God of the forests and was well known to be a night time visitor. None of which resemble New Zealanders. Yet, as a society we have normalised cultural appropriation.
In New Zealand the WAI 262 claim* and its recommendations*offer ways to protect Māori traditional knowledge via new legislation and partnerships. The current government is working hard to implement these recommendations. In the meantime though, I do not believe any moral manufacturer has any excuse to appropriate Māori culture. Unlike 20 years ago, we live in an information society, most of us have Internet and are able to see and learn about cultural appropriation.

*The claim is about the place of Māori culture, identity and traditional knowledge in New Zealand's laws, and in government policies and practices.

Privileged White public school boys doing the haka is akin to Morris dancing. That is performing ancient rituals the significance of which they bearly understand. And yes after 260 years of occupation even Māori are loosing touch with their roots.